Photobucket

Tuesday, January 6, 2009

IS NEW HOPE CHURCH DECEIVED?

The Bible warns of false prophets and that many will be deceived:

Acts 20:
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.


Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is the responsibility of every pastor and church to ensure what is being taught is true. It is the job of a pastor to handle the word of God correctly and to equip his people so they will not be deceived!

Last week, my wife and I went to eat at Logan's Roadhouse. The restaurant is located right next to New Hope Church in Abilene, TX. They have a sign that gives information about upcoming events that the church is sponsoring. The sign read Ignite 09!
I went home and looked up some information about this event from the New Hope website, and here is what I found:

Ignite 2009
Igniting the Flame of Revival Through Prayer
January 2 @ 7 pm
January 3 @ 10 am, 2 pm, and 7 pm
Wesley & Stacey Campbell are founders of Revival Now! Ministries and 'Praying the Bible International', and a mercy organization for children at risk called 'Be A Hero' (www.beahero.org). They are producers of the "Praying the Bible" CDs and co-authors of several Praying the Bible books.


When I read Stacy Campbell's name, I immediately said to myself, "You have to be kidding! No pastor with any spiritual discernment would bring this woman anywhere near his church!" Before we can get to Stacy Campbell and New Hope Church, we need to go back to 2008!

Let me give you some history.

Last year the big story was the Lakeland Revival and Todd Bentley:

From Wikipedia:
Todd Bentley (born 10 January 1976) is a Canadian Christian evangelist. He is perhaps best known as the controversial key figure of the Lakeland Revival.


Many Charismatic churches were all excited about this supposed revival and sent people there and were in support of all the nonsense that was happening:










I cannot imagine how anyone who claims to be a Christian or a pastor would support that kind of heresy and foolishness! Anyone who stays in a church that supports that kind of error is either deceived or a fool!

In-spite of the above videos, a group of Charismatic leaders showed up at Lakeland to commission Todd Bentley as an Apostle!


Of course it did not take long to realize that all of these charismatic leaders who claim God speaks to them did not have enough spiritual discernment to know what was going on behind the scenes!


A few months after this supposed commissioning the following story broke!

From Wikipedia
Bentley announced his separation from his wife, Shonnah, in August 2008. Bentley has now resigned from the Board of Fresh Fire. A statement released by the remaining Board members says that 'Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff'. Bentley will now 'refrain from all public ministry for a season to receive counsel in his personal life'. [37] As a result, some Christian commentators have spoken of their belief that the Bible holds ministers to high standards, and that marital unfaithfulness is incompatible with Christian leadership.[38][39] Leaders who had aligned themselves with Bentley, have spoken of their desire to see him and his family spiritually restored; a committee made up of Rick Joyner, Jack Deere, and Bill Johnson has been formed to oversee this process.[40] However, on November 28th the Board of Fresh Fire confirmed that Bentley was not currently submitting to this process, and was in their opinion, guilty of adultery.[41]


The following is from: The Voice


Was excessive drinking another reason evangelist Todd Bentley, leader of the Lakeland Florida Revival, stepped down and will divorce wife Shonnah?

On August 15th the board of directors of Bentley’s Fresh Fire Ministries (FFM) said there was an “unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff.” C. Peter Wagner, California pastors’ Che Ahn, Bill Johnson and others commissioned and prophesied to Bentley in a televised service by God TV and offered “apostolic oversight” to the Lakeland Revival. Events have proven the oversight came to late to save the ‘Florida outpouring’ and Bentley stepped down.

Now The Voice magazine has learned that “excessive drinking” may also have been involved. In a letter to ministry partners John Arnott, founder of Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship and member of Wagner’s International Coalition of Apostles wrote, “Further it has now come out that there has been some inappropriate behavior, both with excessive drinking and also with a female member of his staff.”


The entire Lakeland Revival came to a crashing halt! Where was the spiritual discernment? Where are the pastors who supported this garbage? Did they offer a public apology for promoting and supporting it?


This brings us to New Hope Church in Abilene, TX. From their website they invite people to visit their Facebook page, so I did and found this:

"Having a great time at the Lakeland revival. I wrote one short blog about what is going on - you can see it on my profile."
This was written by the Pastor of the Church!

How could a pastor be having a great time at the Lakeland Revival? A place where heresy was being taught and spread - a place where the name of Christ was being mocked!

Remember New Hope just held a confrence called, Ignite 09. One of the speakers was Stacey Campbell. Guess what? She was at the Lakeland Revival! She was one of the leaders there to comission Todd Bentley as an apostle! In fact I have the video!




There you go, that is the woman that the pastor of New Hope has allowed to speak from the pulpit of his church. He is promoting and supporting the teaching of this woman! Here is more the of the great Stacy Campbell!









New Hope Church in Abilene TX, where is your spiritual discernment? Anyone who attended this church needs to really consider what you are supporting! It is time for Christians to repent and turn from such foolishness and return to the Word of God and biblical theology and doctrine!
Bookmark and Share
> posted by Trevor Hammack at

28 Comments:

Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

OH my! This woman is a heretic! Since when does God makes someone shake their heads uncontrollably? I wish people in that church would start reading the Word and stop trying to experience confusion.

I'm sick just watching it...

January 6, 2009 at 5:50 PM  
Anonymous Jap ;) said...

At least she wasn't shaking her booty, LOL. Just playing. But on a serious note.....how are you supposed to take this serious? There wer people in the congregation laughing at it. I would've walked out of the church if I ever saw that. Rediculous.....

January 6, 2009 at 10:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Mt 7:1

Just like this verse commands us, we should not judge one another. I mean, who are we to judge anyway. "For we have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", which puts us all on the same level; no one person above the other.

You make some bold links here. First off linking Todd Bentley too Stacey Campel. While the two might have been leaders at the same place, Stacey is not held accountable for Todd's mistake. This is true for you as well. You are not held accountable for the mistakes others make. Then linking Tod Bentley and his mistakes to New Hope Church through Stacey; seems like a stretch to me.

What happened to correcting one another out of love? For the sake of the person being corrected? All I see in this blog is one Christian attacking another Christian. What kind of message are we sending to non-believers when one Christ follower openly attacks another? Did Jesus not call us to love our brothers? Truth of the matter is, people often attack/judge what they don't understand. From what I can tell, you read a billboard, watched a view videos on youtube, spent sometime on wikapedia, and now you think you understand and can post this blog to be the TRUTH when all it is, is YOUR opinion. Which i completely believe that you are entitled to your opinion. But when you post something like this i think that you should be careful to make it known that this is YOUR opinion and not the necessarily the truth.

God Bless

January 26, 2009 at 11:25 PM  
Blogger Trevor Hammack said...

I want to thank you for taking the time to read the blog and share your thoughts. I want truth more than anything else. In the pursuit of truth, I welcome challenges that will make me re-examine what I currently beleive. I thank you for challenging me and what I have written.

I hope you will consider my response carefully and truly think about what I am saying.

You began your comments by quoting:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Mt 7:1


From this quote, it seems that you are clearly saying we as Christians are not to judge.

Take a few minutes and think about your claim:

If you are claiming that I am judging others, are you not making a judgment about me?

Doesn't your comment require that you have made a judgment and that judgment is that I am judging, and so you are telling me to not judge on the basis of you judging me?

In fact I will suggest that your comments are filled with judgments:

Let's look:

"You make some bold links here. First off linking Todd Bentley too Stacey Campel. While the two might have been leaders at the same place, Stacey is not held accountable for Todd's mistake. This is true for you as well. You are not held accountable for the mistakes others make. Then linking Tod Bentley and his mistakes to New Hope Church through Stacey; seems like a stretch to me"


Where did I say that Stacy Campbell is responsible for Todd's mistakes? Is that not a judgment you are making about what I have written?

Here are my actual words:

Remember New Hope just held a confrence called, Ignite 09. One of the speakers was Stacy Campbell. Guess what? She was at the Lakeland Revival! She was one of the leaders there to comission Todd Bentley as an apostle! In fact I have the video!

That is all I said, where did I blame her? Where did I hold her responsible?

It is a fact that Stacy went to Lakeland to "comission" Todd as an "apostle"

Therefore she was in support of the Lakeland chaos!

That is a fact.


You went on to write, "All I see in this blog is one Christian attacking another Christian." Is that not a judgment on your part?


I hope my point is clear. Your comments also contain judgments, so are you violating the very scripture you quoted?

Now let's back up and look at the text more carefully:


Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considereth not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? THOU HYPOCRITE, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matthew 7:1-5)

Read this again carefully. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite--not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God's Word. And instead of being a prohibition against honest judgment, it is a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment. In fact, the last statement of this Scripture commands sincere judgment--"Then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

IF WE TAKE A VERSE OR A PART OF A VERSE OUT OF ITS SETTING, WE CAN MAKE THE WORD OF GOD APPEAR TO TEACH THE VERY OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT REALLY DOES TEACH. And those who do this cannot escape the judgment of God for twisting His Word (2 Peter 3:16). Let this be a warning to us never again to take a text or Scripture out of its context.

Many who piously quote, "Judge not," out of its connection, in order to defend that which is false to God's Word, do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who would obey God's Word about judging that which is untrue to the Bible. It is tragic that so much that is anti- Scriptural has found undeserved shelter behind a misuse of the Scripture just quoted.

You should take some time and read the entire chapter of Matthew 7. Notice these words just a few verses after the one you quoted:


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.



That is filled with language of judgment. In fact, how can I obey the command to beware of false prophets, if I am not to judge?


In fact, look at what Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 1:20 -
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

He named names!

Look at what Jesus told the Church of Pergamos in Revelation chapter 2:

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

The church was not taking a stand against false doctrine. How can you do that unless you judge a doctrine to be false?


We are not to make hypocritical judgments and we are to ensure our judgments are biblical.

So let's review:

You have told me not to judge but in doing so you have made judgments yourself.

It is clear from God's word we are to make biblical judgements especially in regards to false teachers!

Let's move on.

You wrote:

"What happened to correcting one another out of love?"

That is a great question. What makes you think that I did not write my post out of love?

Is it not love to warn people of false teachers and heritical movements?

Is it not love to rebuke and to warn?

Is this not love?
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to rebuke others and to warn.

I am very busy, and I would much rather post other things. However, to love others is to warn them of false teaching.

The greatest act of hatred is to allow someone to be deceived and to say nothing. If you love people, are you warning them of what is going on in many circles of the charismatic world? Do you speak out when false prophecies are made? Do you speak out when things that are occuring are clearly not biblical?

At the end of your comments you wrote this,
"spent sometime on wikapedia, and now you think you understand and can post this blog to be the TRUTH when all it is, is YOUR opinion."

Wow, that seems to clearly be a judgment. What did I say that is not true?

You have told me not to judge yet in doing so you have judged.

The scriptures are clear that we are to avoid false teachers and speak out against it. This can only be done by making scriptural judgments.


You seem to think that if one offers up scriptural criticism and rebuke, that is not a sign of love. However, I pointed out a number of scriptures that show the opposite.

You seem to have indicated that I have offered opinion and not truth, once again making a judgement about my words. I submit that I have offered a strong biblical challenge to some of the craziness happening in the Charismatic world.


Thanks again for challenging me. I'm sorry you took offense to my post, but I am not sorry for warning people about a movement that is filled with chaos and false teaching.
I challenge all readers to not just take my word for it. Do a search for Stacy Campbell. Find her videos and watch them carefully. Check her words against the scriptures, and let the Bible lead you to truth.

Trevor Hamamck

April 25, 2009 at 11:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have recently moved to Abilene, TX. I come from a spirit filled church where we say "once your born in fire you cant settle for smoke". I attended New Hope a few times and was not feeling challenged. Im currently looking for church that is similar to the Ramp with its passion for holiness and not cute messages, a church that is not afraid to lose members but be a part of a generation of warriors. Trevor, I read your post and its true, for it is written "My people parish for their lack of knowledge". What church do you attend?

May 14, 2009 at 6:03 PM  
Blogger Trevor Hammack said...

I am the Pastor of Victory Baptist church loated about 22 minutes south of Abilene, TX
You can check out our messages at this link:

www.sermonaudio.com/vbc



If you have questions please contact me by e-mail at tsrk30@sbcglobal.net or phone: 325-695-8202

May 14, 2009 at 7:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well Trevor, from your last comment on this post sounds to me like you are just trying to get more members at your church! This is not a competition.

My husband and I have been attending New Hope for nearly a year now and love it. Pastor Chuck is definitely a man of God and is a wonderful preacher! Just because you do not agree with the people he invites to his church does not mean you should bash the church over the Internet! Our church is a wonderful and Godly place, maybe you should attend it one sunday! :o)

God Bless
-Samantha G.

September 21, 2009 at 12:38 AM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

God's word does not agree with people who teach damnable heresies. God's people must defend the truth for God's name's sake and for his sheep so that they be not lead astray.

The pastor that feeds and leads the sheep in the rigth way according to Biblical truth is the pastor that should be counted worthy of double honor.

At times, rebuke and correction are necessary, and it is loving to convey these, just as it is loving for a parent to discipline their child.

While it may not be popular in modern evangelistic churhces to exercise church discipline and rebuke and admonition against sin, it is Biblical and necessary. And pastors and teachers are held in greater accountability. Many lives are at stake under the leading or misleading of a pastor.

So no, this is not a game, and it is certainly not a competition. Our church would rather lose members and attendees for the sake of Biblical truth than gain people at the compromise of it.

Therefore, to make the accusation that we are competing to gain numbers in our congregation is petty and innaccurate, especailly being based on a single comment on a post.

Please know I say that with your best interest in mind over my own and furthermore with Christ's best interest in mind since you claim to be a beliver on Christ. He and his word and his truth must be upheld above all. I pray we as a church uphold it at all times in the most loving way, however unloving and judgemental it may seem to some.

It is exceedingly loving and wise to judge/evaluate everything in light of scripture, and I pray that you look at what your pastor says and what the teachers say whom he brings into the church so that you may test the spirits and test all things in light of scripture.

To God be the glory. Since you claim to be a believer, I pray, like Paul, that you (Colossians 1:9-12) "may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light."

September 21, 2009 at 7:13 AM  
Anonymous Ailsa said...

Hello Trevor

I have got to say that your article is wonderful and so needed to help show the deluded lambs the Truth. Those who have no shepherds to point out to them the errors that are rife in the 'christian' world today.

You are a true Shepherd with a Shepherd's heart which comes through so beautifully in your writings . I wish I lived near your Church but I am in Scotland in the UK where it is near enough impossible to find a Church which preaches the Truth anymore.

I have made a copy of your reply to anonymous about judging , this is just great and I need it myself as I have been accused of the same, trying to pull loved ones out of the fire.

The only motivation for this is love , why else would we bother.

Judging does not even come into it.

It is the case however I have found that if you say anything about these so called prophets etc , rather that listening to the Truth about them , people become offended and you then become the problem.

God bless you in all you are saying and doing for your Beloved Lord and Saviour .

Ailsa

September 21, 2009 at 8:59 AM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

I just wish that instead of assuming why we do things or say things that New Hope supporters would actually address something, even a tiny thing, that was actually said in the posts.

If you support New Hope great...but I ask you to please read what was said and address some of the points that Pastor Hammack addressed. Instead of getting mad and saying we're being mean, how about addressing the points?

Thanks,
Jim Leavenworth

September 21, 2009 at 8:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My family and I currently attend NewHope. I have also attended several other Churches including Church Of Christ, Vineyard, LDS and so on. The last two Churches I have attended have been awesome. The two Churches I am talking about are Olympic Vineyard in Washington and NewHope here in Abilene. Now about right and wrong, I am not here to argue with people so don't think this is why I am posting here but, I have never felt such a strong presence of God since I have joined the Charismatic Churches. I have no doubt about the presence of God in NewHope. You can not deny it if you attend. It is not a show or cute messages just honest work for The Kingdom. If you doubt what The Spirit can do I challenge you to ask because if you ask you will receive. The Spirit is strong and undeniable at NewHope. Now about associations with other people such as The Great Awakening Tour. We are Commanded by God to expand The Kingdom and that is what happened. For a week alot of Members and people all over the Country joined in Abilene and covered the streets preaching The Gospel. This produced alot of fruit. The Kingdom grew by the thousands in that week. Jesus clearly stated you will know they are from Me by their fruit. Yes we do follow Biblical teaching about laying on of hands for the sick, and seek all gifts given to Gods people. Now I do believe in correction in The Church. If you know of something sinful you should attempt to correct it if you yourself don't have a plank in your own eye. Become perfect in God then pass all the judgement you want. I am not perfect so I lead people to Scripture and allow God to correct their behavior not me. So in closing I have absolute Faith that NewHope is great in the eyes of our Savior and I only pray that all Churches join together and do the best for Christ and put aside petty differences. God Bless all who read this!!!!!!!!!!

October 26, 2009 at 10:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this whole thing is stupid!! my family and i have been attending new hope for 8 years now and we have loved every minute of it...and another thing...did you even GO to the lakeland revival or did you just judge from the junk you read or heard on the tv? Of course they are going to criticize it...it's the world we live in. you should try things before you start rambling on and quoting scripture and judging other people...it is NOT your place to judge someone only God's right PASTOR?????

November 24, 2009 at 1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and another thing, don't trust anything you get on wikipedia...you can go in and edit things from the internet...no telling who posted that...get more reliable resources!!!

November 24, 2009 at 1:14 PM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

Once again, just as in responding to those who quote Matt 7:1 about not judging...all people judge all the time for it is right and wise and just plain normal to judge (evaluate) things (which includes people and their teachings).

You who call us out and tell us to not judge, guess what, you are doing the very same thing, judging us.

How else would you evaluate and conclude that our actions are wrong? You say it's wrong for us to judge. Don't you realize by saying that, you are making a judgment? How can you not see that? It's a case of something being right under your nose so to speak.

The point is not whether or not someone judges, it is whether or not someone judges RIGHTLY, with righteous judgment!

We hold that we are judging rightly...and so far the only defense or objection I see happening here is people basically just saying, "You can't judge at all no matter how you do it."

That is ludicrous folks, for you have judged us at the same time. Wow.

Use righteous judgement!

And, next time someone wants to disagree with HOW we've judged, back it up with sound Biblical doctrine.

Please, do not merely try to rob us of our ability to judge while retaining your own ability to judge. That is the epitome of hypocrisy.

To counter some of your points...just because you love something, even for a long time, does not mean that thing is right or good. Example: Sinners love sinning. But sinning is still wrong.

The closest I personally got to going to the Lakeland revival was watching it on GodTV and blogging almost every second of it.

Speaking of personal first hand eye witness evidence of the Lakeland Revival, did you yourself GO to it so that you can rightly defend it??

And are you sure it is not our place to judge, but only God's?

How about the scripture that teaches to test the spirits? How about the doctrine of spiritual discernment as taught in scripture? Do you agree that to discern is similar to evaluating and judging?

How do you define "judge"?

Do you mean judge as in pronounce judgement and in other words to condemn? Is condemnation necessarily always a result of judgment? If so, would you agree that telling us we're wrong to judge is condmening us? If so, how can you do to us the very thing you claim we're doing and yet tell us not to do it? Wouldn't that be a case of removing the beam or log from your own eye before you remove the speck from ours?

It is most certainly a Christian's right to judge. It is called for in scripture. It is called to be done RIGHTLY.

Rabbit trailing now but related...did you know that we, you and me, are going to judge angles? That's in scripture too.

November 24, 2009 at 2:45 PM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

"Angels", not "angles"...only geometry teachers judge angles!

November 24, 2009 at 2:49 PM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

Furthermore, the scripture teaches us to beware of false prophets. Do you agree???

If so, then how in the world do you judge, evaluate, or figure out that a prophet or teacher is false, or wrong, if indeed we are not supposed to judge!?!?!

To obey the command, the instruction, the imperative (not the suggestion) to BEWARE of false prophets and teachers, we must first determine (judge) whether they are false or not. Agreed?

If they are false, one thing we must do is beware of them...

Moreover, if a teacher is false, which of the following is right:
1) Say the teacher is false/wrong.
2) Say the teacher is true/right.
3) Say nothing.

To aid your answer:
First, notice that in order to determine which answer is right, you've got to use some righteous judgment.
Second, if you say a false teacher is false, your are being true, telling the truth, which is the good and right to do.
Third, if you say a false teacher is true, you are being false, not telling the truth, which is the bad and wrong thing to do.
Fourth, if you say nothing, then there are multiple implications:

A) You do harm to the flock for not warning them of a false teacher.
B) You do harm to the Shepherd for allowing his flock to be harmed.
C) There are many other wrong things that can be going on in you to cause you to say nothing.

A likely significant cause would be you have an improper understanding of Matt 7:1 and are afraid to call a teacher right or wrong for fear of "judging" wrongly, which does you harm you wish to avoid, and for fear of judging wrongly and doing the teacher and others harm, which you wish to avoid.

But again, you do the greatest harm if you say nothing at all and do not warn the flock about a false teacher.

So, if you wish to avoid the greatest harm, say something, use righteous judgement.

If you're still hung up on fear of making a false accusation about a teacher, then get busy honing your spiritual discernment, get deeper into the word and get the word deeper into you.

Be obedient to God's call in scripture to properly beware, warn, exhort, admonish judge, discern, test the spirits, etc...be prayerful about it and trust that God will through the Spirit and his word sanctify you and enable you to JUDGE RIGHTLY.

Now, if you agree with all of this, then your issue is not truely with the fact that we are judging, nor is it with the fact that we are judging rightly. It is with the perception that we are judging rightly but in a bad tone so that is sounds not right, or sounds condmening.

This gets into the issue being able to say that someone is wrong but not being condemning. I may not be clear on this, but let me try. It's one thing to tell someone they're wrong and state it matter of factly. It's another to come down harshly upon them and say something like, "You're so wrong, damn you to hell!"

Forgive the expression...

But for the emotional and overly sensitive types, even telling them they're wrong in a meek or gentle manner can make their meek (albeit also wrong) spirits crushed.

Again, this is another issue. My focus is on the facts. Either New Hope church is deceived (wrong) or it is not. It's a matter of fact one way or the other. Same goes for my own church and any other church, pastor, teacher, or person.

November 24, 2009 at 3:17 PM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

Rich Mullins put it best one time about this last issue when he said, "They're not bad, they're just wrong." He was judging someone to be right or wrong, but he was not casting judgment, condemning, upon them.

Is that difference clear?

Now, I'd go further and say people are not good either...

November 24, 2009 at 3:28 PM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

And to be sure I have not offended others or hurt the name of Christ, when I used the expression, "...damn..." I did not mean to use it in the sense of our American culture's curse/cuss word as much as its other technical form of use for the word "condemn."

For to condemn is to damn.

My point is not to condemn others but to point out their mistakes or sins or falsehood, as for example in one place taught in Galatians 6:1. Of course, my other point was to do so rightly or righteously as taught in Matt 7.

I hope no one has taken offense to my use of the word "damn" and that if so then no one would use it as more fodder for derailing this long argument from its main points.

This is me being sensitive to the fact that I could have been offesive to some in possibly an unecessary way, which I wish to avoid.

But, let me distinguish the fact that it is also good and right to offend others at times in the right way.

For example, to tell someone the gospel, you must first tell them they've sinned, they're sinners, and they're wrong in their sin, wich is not being judgmental by the way.

Now it's true they're wrong, and they may feel offended if you tell them they're sinners because that's what the Bible says, but you still must tell them!

The gospel offends some, as does Christ, but proclaim them anyway!

For more to chew on, Christ did not come to bring peace, but a sword!

November 24, 2009 at 4:10 PM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Anyone notice a theme from the people who are mad that New Hope is being questioned? The theme is this "New Hope must be OK since I like New Hope...and don't judge lest ye be judged".

Sorry folks...why don't you just respond to the things said, i.e. the scriptural charges? And with regard to the "don't judge lest ye be judged" mentality I say, "Don't twist scripture lest ye be Satan."

So are you saying that Todd Bentley is a godly man that's called of God after what he's done? YOu want to follow a guy like that go ahead...so what of the charges made do you think are being mishandled by the "Tv" or the other sources?

I know it's easy to just say "and another thing, don't trust anything you get on wikipedia...you can go in and edit things from the internet" but what you're doing is insinuating that things said in the post are not true.

OK Anonymous, I'm calling you out...what things said in the post that we supposedly got off Wikipedia or the Internet are not true and what's your proof to back it up? I'm suspecting that I'm going to hear nothing but silence...

November 24, 2009 at 4:37 PM  
Blogger Jason McFadden said...

Another example, BTW, of judging unrightly, besides being condemning I suppose, is to judge rightly according to the facts but to come off arrogantly, presumptuously, or flippantly, etc.

I hope that we have not conveyed or that no one has perceived us as coming of condemning or arrogant in our manner of judging things to be true or false.

On the other hand, again, if you feel bad or guilty for a wrong someone calls you out on, that's good. You should feel shame, guilt, or 'badness'. And it should be of the godly sorrow sort, not the wordly sorrow sort.

Conviction preceeds confession...

November 24, 2009 at 4:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why don't everyone just go to Beltway Baptist, it's lovely there:)

December 10, 2009 at 1:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

King David ("a man after God's own heart) was an adulteror. Do you also want to nullify all of his work? Do you say God didn't annoint him since he is an adulteror? Does it mean David had no discernment of Gods Word because of his adultery? Do you think all the people David assosiated with should also not be heard. Didn't God still bless David abundantly after his adultery. I fear for the pastor who has to live a blameless life, must be hard to never sin:( Sin can and does fall on all men no matter how godly they may be. Adultery is a terrible thing, but sin is sin to God and we are all guilty of some type of sin. L-Dogg

December 10, 2009 at 1:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

However, I am not too sure about all the leg drops, tackling, choking, and kicking people in the face. Those videos are a little too much. I did attend the revival that Bill Johnson and Randy Clark did in Abilene not too long ago and thought it was fantastic. L-Dogg

December 10, 2009 at 2:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Todd Bentley did somethings for the kingdom of God at one point in his ministry but did a whole lot more for the kingdom of Satan. When did he turn away from the Lord and to his own flesh, only God knows. But let me ask you something, Jim. Did any good come from King David? Solomon? Noah? etc....
Our church is greived by the sinful acts committed by not only Todd Bentley but by those who only judge by hear say. God wants us to judge rightously. If I was to go back in your pastors history and post all his failings on the internet, would God be pleased? You would be so much more effective if you would obey scripture and lift your fellow brother and sister up in prayer. It is not your place to expose sin. God has being doing a great job on His own without the help of us. Did He not have trouble exposing the sin of Todd Bentley? Did He not give Todd time to turn from his wicked ways and repent? Or do you not believe our God's mercy extends to such depths?
I am very familiar with your doctrine, Jim. Unfortunately, that's all it is. Yes, I agree you have some truth, but that's not good enough.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I was very disturbed in many ways when I heared your pastor speak.
Rev. 22:17 WHOEVER
2Peter 3:9 not willing that ANY should perish
Rom. 10:13 WHOEVER
Mark 16:15 why would He ask us to "go ye into all the world" then?
Acts2:21
Please remember that all the extra cirriculum, reference books, and commentary that the Calvinist so infamously like to use are chalked full of someones opinion. It was not "God breathed" as the bible was. I feel this is where your doctrine has failed terribly.
Where is it scriptual to "challenge" another Christian?
Also, could you tell me when the Holy Spirit left this earth? Your doctrine doesn't believe that we can commune with God or hear from God anymore. Where in the world does it say this in scripture? I encourage you to seek God more through relational means rather than just through scripture because you've missed the part about God wanting a relationship with us. And you know as well as I that relationships are not a one way street. There has to be converstion in order to have a relationship.
Jesus' whole ministry when on this earth was about a relationship with Him. When He went to prepare a place for us He left us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter. No Calvinist can ever explain that to me. When did the Holy Spirit which is God leave???
I am so disturbed by your lack of knowledge.
God so loved us that He gave His only begotten Son to us but didn't love us enough to speak to us anymore. There is no scripture to back that up. So stop being so angry at the ones that still hear from God just because you can't.
Matt.22:39
Matt. 12:31
Luke 6:35
Luke 11:42 please read

December 11, 2009 at 12:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Todd Bentley did somethings for the kingdom of God at one point in his ministry but did a whole lot more for the kingdom of Satan. When did he turn away from the Lord and to his own flesh, only God knows. But let me ask you something, Jim. Did any good come from King David? Solomon? Noah? etc....
Our church is greived by the sinful acts committed by not only Todd Bentley but by those who only judge by hear say. God wants us to judge rightously. If I was to go back in your pastors history and post all his failings on the internet, would God be pleased? You would be so much more effective if you would obey scripture and lift your fellow brother and sister up in prayer. It is not your place to expose sin. God has being doing a great job on His own without the help of us. Did He not have trouble exposing the sin of Todd Bentley? Did He not give Todd time to turn from his wicked ways and repent? Or do you not believe our God's mercy extends to such depths?
I am very familiar with your doctrine, Jim. Unfortunately, that's all it is. Yes, I agree you have some truth, but that's not good enough.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I was very disturbed in many ways when I heared your pastor speak.
Rev. 22:17 WHOEVER
2Peter 3:9 not willing that ANY should perish
Rom. 10:13 WHOEVER
Mark 16:15 why would He ask us to "go ye into all the world" then?
Acts2:21
Please remember that all the extra cirriculum, reference books, and commentary that the Calvinist so infamously like to use are chalked full of someones opinion. It was not "God breathed" as the bible was. I feel this is where your doctrine has failed terribly.
Where is it scriptual to "challenge" another Christian?
Also, could you tell me when the Holy Spirit left this earth? Your doctrine doesn't believe that we can commune with God or hear from God anymore. Where in the world does it say this in scripture? I encourage you to seek God more through relational means rather than just through scripture because you've missed the part about God wanting a relationship with us. And you know as well as I that relationships are not a one way street. There has to be converstion in order to have a relationship.
Jesus' whole ministry when on this earth was about a relationship with Him. When He went to prepare a place for us He left us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter. No Calvinist can ever explain that to me. When did the Holy Spirit which is God leave???
I am so disturbed by your lack of knowledge.
God so loved us that He gave His only begotten Son to us but didn't love us enough to speak to us anymore. There is no scripture to back that up. So stop being so angry at the ones that still hear from God just because you can't.
Matt.22:39
Matt. 12:31
Luke 6:35
Luke 11:42 please read

December 11, 2009 at 12:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The devil is always seeking to kill, steal and destroy. He is always coming against that which is contrary to his plan. This posting is a direct attack from the enemey and could have been so much more effective if it were true. But it's not and you are only going by part of the story you have heard. Don't be an advocate for Satan, and please get your facts straight by talking to Pastor Chuck Farina.

Matt. 5:22-24

December 11, 2009 at 12:55 PM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Anonymous,

First let me say that you must not have read the post and think that I posted it...I didn't, Pastor Hammack did. Now I 100% agree with all that's said so I guess I can address what you said.

You asked "Did any good come from King David? Solomon? Noah?" Of course...but does that mean that what they did was a good thing? Didn't God Himself rebuke David very sternly for what he did (killed his child, humiliated him in front of the nation, caused him to live a life of war forever)?

Didn't Solomon take a huge rebuke from the Lord? Yes. You are right that God is able to take care of rebuke and punishment for wrongdoing. The big difference between David/Solomon and those like Todd Bentley is that they repented...has Todd Bentley repented and come out to tell all that he did wrong? Not that I'm aware of.

You then insinuated that Pastor Hammack and I are judging by hearsay and therefore not righteously "by those who only judge by hear say. God wants us to judge rightously" OK...just like one of the previous posters...I'm asking you for support for your statement. Here's my quesiton, what was said in the post is not established fact and is merely heresay? If we've spoken gossip from wrong sources please let us know so that we can repent and apologize.

You said "It is not your place to expose sin." Are you serious? Christianity is a joke to so many today because of all the bulloney that goes on. Do you think we should just hide the heretics and just ignore it? Shouldn't sin be exposed so that others will learn and hopefully become more accurate to Scripture and more Christlike? I know you'll agree with that.

So how does God expose sin if He doesn't use people...doesn't Scripture say for those in the church to do it?

Rom 16:17-18 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2Th 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that man and do not associate with him, so that he may be put to shame.

1Ti 1:19-20 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Then you said that you know my doctrine, what I believe...and then go on to prove with your words that you really don't. You said Calvinists can't explain when God left? Please start naming Calvinists that have said this. Let me set the record straight- I don't believe the Holy Spirit left. I believe He indwells every believer (including you and me)...I believe that He guides us, that He illuminates our minds but the big difference is that He speaks through His Word and not through millions of contradictory people's experiences (an indepth reply would be too big for a blog post)

You seem to think we can't judge whether someone is scriptural or not and yet in several sentences above you've slammed me for basically being completely scripturally ignorant...isn't that a bit hypocritical?

As to your shotgun references to Scriptures...you clearly don't look at the context or the Greek because these verses don't prove your point. Go on Sermonaudio and listen to my sermon series on John 3:16 for more specifics.

At least when Pastor Hammack critiqued these folks he did it with knowledge of what they believe. from the last 1/2 of your email it's clear you need to do some studying on what reformed believers actually believe.

December 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Anonymous,
In my morning readings I came across this one that I didn't cite yesterday & thought I'd share it with you. You said believers are not to expose the sin of others and that only God is supposed to do that. What did the Apostle Paul tell Timothy?

1 Timothy 5:19-20-Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

If someone claims to be a church leader that makes them an elder. If there is 100% proof of someone's sins then their sins should be rebuked and exposed before all so that believers would fear to do the same (i.e. you even admitted that Bentley sinned, even though you insinuated that we were perpetuating gossip and heresay- to which you've not shown)

David's sins were exposed by Nathan...Solomon's sins were exposed...Paul rebuked Peter's sins before others, Paul rebuked several false teachers before the church, and in this verse Paul said to expose them again.

December 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home