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Tuesday, April 21, 2009

The Book of Jasher?



Our church has been reading through the Bible chronologically…and at this point we’re in 2 Samuel and Psalms mainly. We’ve also been studying the canon of the Bible…how we know what is in Scripture and what is not? For those of you at Victory Baptist…have you noticed the interesting phrase found in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18? I’m actually surprised only one person has asked me about it!
Here is what 2 Samuel 1:18 says:

“(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)”

So here’s the first question:

#1- Did you wonder what the book was enough to do some research & homework?

#2- Are we missing a book of the Bible?

Here is what I found. First, what does the word “Jasher” mean in the original Hebrew?

yashar = 1) straight, upright, correct, right 1a) straight, level 1b) right, pleasing, correct 1c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper 1d) uprightness, righteous, upright 1e) that which is upright (subst)

The Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) uses a Greek word that is also translated as “upright.” It could be translated the “book of the upright/just.” So here’s the real question…what book does it refer to? Here is what Matthew Henry commented:

“That book was probably a collection of state-poems; what is said to be written in that book is also poetical, a fragment of an historical poem. Even songs would be forgotten and lost if they were not committed to writing, that best conservatory of knowledge…It is not a divine hymn, nor given by inspiration of God to be used in divine service, nor is there any mention of God in it; but it is a human composition, and therefore was inserted, not in the book of Psalms (which, being of divine original, is preserved), but in the book of Jasher, which, being only a collection of common poems, is long since lost.”

According to some sources there appears to be at least three separate medieval “book of Jashers.” The bottom line is that we have no manuscript evidence for a trustworthy “book of Jasher” that dates back to biblical times.

Should this bother you? Not at all! Just because a book is mentioned in the Bible doesn’t mean it was inspired and then lost. Want an example? OK…twist my arm! How about this verse:

“And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia?” (Est 10:2 KJV)

If we follow that reasoning we’d have to say that the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia should be in the Old Testament…I think you can see that’s clearly not the case. So…trust the Word of God as it’s been given to us and don’t fret. Just because something is mentioned doesn’t mean it’s inspired.
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> posted by Jim Leavenworth at

20 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think you should really take a look at the site i'm going to give to you. Mabey you will find in interesting, regarding The Book of Jasher. I really encourage everyone to take a long look, and research even further! It really is quite intersting!

www.thelostbooks.com

May 1, 2009 at 4:32 AM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Anonymous,
Thanks for the posting. I did indeed go to the site you mentioned and I have some follow-up questions for you.

First...your site says the following- "Constantine began what was to become a century’s long effort to eliminate any book in the original Bible that was considered unacceptable to the new doctrine of the church. At that time, it is believed there were up to 600 books, which comprised the work we now know as the Bible. Through a series of decisions made by the early church leadership, all but 80 of those books, known as the King James Translation of 1611, were purged from the work, with a further reduction by the Protestant Reformation bringing the number to 66 in the "Authorized" King James Bible."

What is the historical evidence for this statement? Are you referring to the Council of Nicea? It seems so. Of course...that's a flawed argument if the site is suggesting so...first, did the Council even talk about the canon (hard pressed to find that evidence!). Was Constantine even there? How in the world could one man at a council suppress 600 books and enforce that upon the Christian world without leaving one ounce of evidence? If you have any evidence please let us know.

Thanks!

Jim Leavenworth
The Preaching Today Team

May 4, 2009 at 8:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey great article but I have one thing against it. The prophets who wrote Joshua and 2 Samuel quoted from the Book of Jasher. The Book would have been obviously about the Jewish remnants of old. I also do see your claim about the History of Persia. That still doesn't negate the Book of Jasher to not have literacy credit attributed to it. The Book of Genesis is very vague on the flood as well as the life and times of Abraham and his next few generations. It should only be used for historical evidence but an excerpt can be referenced for a sermon just as the prophets did of old.

Feel free to comment back to me at my email: Jayvon2304@hotmail.com

May 31, 2009 at 9:32 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

The real book of Jasher is found on ccel.org and has been translated from the Hebrew since 1840.
Why real? -because it correlates with Genesis and explains what Genesis itself redacts, on the lives and times of the patriarchs.
It was also written by Moses, using other ancient records of the patriarchs, and completed by Joshua; who then began another book of historical records of the children of Israel.
Moses redacted the records' histories further for Genesis because he had already written them in the "Book of the Upright".


There is nothing in Jasher that contradicts one thing in Genesis, but there is much in Jasher that contradicts speculators' stories who comment on the Word of God without having all the facts; which facts are true from the beginning and which are laid out in not only Jasher, but in 1 Enoch, which is Ethiopian Enoch.


It is ludicrous to believe that the Holy Spirit waited for nearly four hundred years to "ratify" Scripture, which Scripture was already written, used, and accepted as Scripture by believers, from earliest times. That would be comparable to we in the USA not yet having the Constitution ratified, though it is over two hundred years old -and we are abandoning it fast, like the believers did abandon the Word of God, who banned what they did have, and which was used and called Scripture by the early Believers [1 Enoch] at the end of the fourth century.

And the "ratified/accepted" canon/list of Scripture in the fourth century -nearly the fifth century, BTW- was not 'changed' until the 19th century, when the archbishop of Canterbury made the Apocrypha anathema [which was shortened from the fourth century list, BTW, already] .
The first KJV Authorized Bible of 1611 included the Apocrypha, and the archbishop of Canterbury at that time made anyone who did not include it in their Bible readings, in the Churches, anathema; so the 'list/canon' of we in the west is not of the Holy Spirit, but of men, who played politics -and who still play politics- with Scripture, and who keep men in darkness -who choose to be in their darkness- by doing so.

The Geneva Bible was the first English translation, and it also included the Apocrypha, which is the Bible brought to America and used by the Puritan settlers, so 66 books is a fable invented in the 19th century, before we wre born, but that is no excuse for our ignorance of the history of 'canon', nor is it an excuse for our ignorance of the accepted 'canon' in other Christian Churches worldwide -they did not all follow Rome.

But I digress.
If one does not have Jasher then they do not know why Miriam is called a prophetess, when she is first named, in Genesis;
nor why Abel is called a prophet, by Jesus, nor what his prophecy means about the Atonement of Jesus;
nor what Anah really found in the wilderness [Genesis 36:24; Jasher 36:28;
nor anything about Moses' life between Egypt and Midian, nor how old Moses was when he fled Egypt;
nor why Moses' sons were so young when he departed with them and his wife for Egypt;
nor why Moses' firstborn son was not circumcised;
nor why Moses began with his sons and wife, on his journey to Egypt, and yet they were not in Egypt in Exodus, and why his father-in-law brought them to him after the Exodus, later;

nor why Sarah was actually the niece of Abraham, sister of Lot and milcah, and grandaughter of Terah;
nor that Sarai is actually Iscah, in Genesis Gen 11:29, daughter of the deceased brother to Abram, Haran, who was killed because of his father, Terah, in Ur;
nor why Haran was killed in Ur, because of Terah, nor who killed him...
and the list goes on and on and on. Because it is written in Jasher, and need not be rewritten in Genesis, and because Jasher was lost, then we are in the dark about hundreds of things which are cleared up by reading Jasher.
-But many people prefer the dark.
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html

July 3, 2009 at 4:39 PM  
Blogger Trevor Hammack said...

Wow, thanks so much for the information Terrie. You have gien us a lot to reseach and to consider and we will try to work on this as soon as we can. However, I do have a few questions for you so we can understand where you are coming from.



What Church do you attend?

Is their a doctrinal statement that summarizes your Beliefs?

Thank you for your time, and we will try to create a post in the near future adressing the issues you have raised. Please comment any time.

Trevor Hamamck

July 3, 2009 at 6:15 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

Dear Mr Hammack,

You're welcome.
I am a born again in Christ, water baptized, female [married to one man 45 years, a mom, a grandma], Gentile, Believer in Jesus Christ; Who Himself is God the Word, the second Person in the Triune YHWH come in human being flesh of the second creation, as brother to Adam, and therefore Kinsman/Redeemer, and inheritor of the earth [through reverse adoption by being born out of the woman's womb].
In all the years I have been born again in Christ and fellowshipped in denominational Churches with my husband and family, I have never identified myself as anything other than as a born again in Christ, water baptized believer and -horrors to some- I "speak" in tongues [sometimes, but not in Church:).
I read compulsively, so I choose what to have around to read. I love history -true history; and I believe that Paul was a scribe who gave the meaning of what was already written in the Law and the prophets, by the revelations given him [understandings of what was already written, for Jesus is the last "prophet", of that sort], and I do not believe that Paul brought one new doctrine into being, but was a scribe only, to explain what was already written.
And I believe that Paul explained what he was given to understand for all Jews and Gentiles.
Paul's writings are heavy with allusions to not only what is written in the living oracles [the Law], but to what is written in 1 Enoch ]esp Romans], as also all NT authors allude to what is already written in 1 Enoch -some allude to Jasher's writings, but not all do].
Paul also writes from information that is recorded in Jasher, first [the names of Jannes and Jambres, for instance], though the Jewish sages also made mention of some of those things in their writings, but they came later, after Jasher, and they sometimes confuse and contradict what is written in the OT and Jasher.

Many think Paul was the first to reveal the 'rapture' of the Church, pre-trib, for instance, but the oracles teach the rapture, in the feasts committed only to the namesake people of the New Man name, for them to rehearse until they are all fulfilled.
But Enoch first taught it in the revelations given him, in parables not understood until the Son of Man came in flesh and gave understanding/revelation on the doctrines of Himself and His work, as written in the Law and the prophets.

My favorite all time preacher is Dr Martin Lloyd-Jones, though I do not agree with his Calvinism, but he did not preach Calvinism in the pulpit, and he did preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified, only and always.

As to myself: Some time ago I was grabbed with the verse in Psalm 119:18, and I began to pray it throughout the day for some time, and had no idea that it would be so literally fulfilled.
There are so many things in His "Law" that serve to teach us His one plan for the redemption of the fallen race of Adam and the ransom of the kingdom He prepared for "Adam and ben Adam" from the beginning -for whosoever will.

These things were planned from the beginning, and God has never invented religion to get to heaven, but made One Way, One Truth, One Life, from the beginning, and revealed it by His prophets, from the beginning of the world, who spoke of Jesus.

He has never changed His mind, and He has never thought to try something else, but has been at work, from the beginning, to complete His one plan for a harvest[two harvests, as the oracles teach, the last being at Tabernacles' fulfillment at the end of the Millennium], of human being sons of God, to be "His temple not made with hands" for His Glory to dwell in, as His house.
Adam was made for that purpose, and did not pass the test and lost the glory forever. But God the Word is come as the second 'Adam' -second human being creation, and not of the Adam flesh body or name, but in a new creation body prepared in the womb of the virgin for His incarnation.
~~~~~
I read, and I also think, "therefore, I am":).
Is that satisfactory?
In Him,
Terrie

July 4, 2009 at 2:16 PM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Terrie,

Thanks for the post. I'll start with one simple question- what is the manuscript support for the book of Jasher? You say that the ccel version (1840) is the "real" version...I assume you have researched it in depth and was wondering if you could share anything regarding manuscripts that support this. The reason I ask is that every book of the Bible has a huge body of manuscript evidence behind it, some dating to the the beginning of the 2nd century. If we have missed a book of the Bible for so long in the west (actually most of all those who call themselves Christian, both east and west) then there should be some good manuscript evidence to support the book.

Thanks!

Jim Leavenworth

July 4, 2009 at 9:33 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

Hello Jim,
I just use the CCEl site for online reference to the Book of Jasher, and they do have some good articles already written there for the curious. ccel of course takes no stand but to present it for itself.


I read Jasher for myself, as the excerpt from ccel.org recommends one do, which I paste a portion of, below.
The particular history of what I and others do call the “real Book of Jasher” has its history given on the ccel site, which I recommend one search out for one’s self; but if one does not read it with a thorough familiarity of the OT and NT, and if one has never been puzzled and had questions raised in one’s own mind by the unfinished stories and allusions to events in the lives and times of the Patriarchs as recorded in the OT and NT, then it will be of no value to one.
The challenge is there for all to read for themselves, and to not just take others’ word for it without doing their own reading for themselves.
I’ve read it and I love it, and it answers so many things -but not all; I still have questions, some of which are further answered in the manuscripts translated so far from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But I have no questions which relate to the Person and Work of the LORD Jesus Christ which were answered in 1 Enoch which are cloudy in the Bible: like where is He "the Son of Man in heaven", who is "come down", yet, "there"; to be found as doctrine in the OT, as Jesus said He is, and was? -the answer is in 1 Enoch, where He is God, hidden with God who is God and who was to come to be revealed to the elect [those who choose to live the elect life, as Enoch says, and to the ones chosen for His name, as the "Righteous Plant" as Enoch reveals in His dream visions].
Jhn 3:12
"If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Jhn 3:13
"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Jhn 6:62
[What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Reading 1 Enoch gave John the understanding of Jesus Christ in heaven as God, with God, who was hidden until the time of His revealing as God come in flesh; and whose Glory was revealed to Peter, James, John, Moses [back in his own body, as the ancient writings did say], and Elijah, on the mount of Transfiguration [who are the two witnesses to come, who will preach Jesus Christ, representing the law and the prophets, in the streets of Jerusalem after the Church is raptured/laqach/removed from the midst of the world, as Enoch was, BTW, when he was translated to Glory].
As you can see, I am full of opinions, but they are my opinions based on my own studies over decades, and I am still forming opinions as I continue to study for myself:)
In Him,
Terrie
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/real.htm
"The first step in dealing with the question of authenticity is to simply read the book with an open mind..."

July 5, 2009 at 4:30 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

July 6, 2009 at 3:04 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

July 6, 2009 at 3:09 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

You can discover lots of things by reading Jasher, like the fact that the Nile truly is a man made river.
But the Nile, being man made, was a source of pride, corrupting the hearts of the Pharaohs who were under the spell of the dragon, as he was addressed by YHWH, in Ezekiel 29, as the one making that remark, through the reigning Pharaohs.

In Exodus 7:8-13 There is a simple passage which is filled out in Jasher 79;


Jasher chapter 79: 34-53
...And the serpent of Aaron's rod lifted up its head and opened its mouth to swallow the rods of the magicians.
And Balaam the magician answered and said, This thing has been from the days of old, that a serpent should swallow its fellow, and that living things devour each other.
Now therefore restore it to a rod as it was at first, and we will also restore our rods as they were at first, and if thy rod shall swallow our rods, then shall we know that the spirit of God is in thee, and if not, thou art only an artificer like unto ourselves.
And Aaron hastened and stretched forth his hand and caught hold of the serpent's tail and it became a rod in his hand, and the sorcerers did the like with their rods, and they got hold, each man of the tail of his serpent, and they became rods as at first.
And when they were restored to rods, the rod of Aaron swallowed up their rods.
`````

then when the Pharaoh was told who YHWH was, He insulted Him, having a hardened heart;

`````
“And Pharaoh turned to Moses and Aaron and said to them, I know not the Lord whom you have declared, neither will I send his people.”…
“And they answered and said to the king, The Lord God of Gods is his name, and he proclaimed his name over us from the days of our ancestors, and sent us, saying, Go to Pharaoh and say unto him, Send my people that they may serve me.
Now therefore send us, ...and if thou wilt not send us, his anger will be kindled against thee, and he will smite Egypt either with the plague or with the sword.”

“And Pharaoh said to them, Tell me now his power and his might; and they said to him, He created the heaven and the earth, the seas and all their fishes, he formed the light, created the darkness, caused rain upon the earth and watered it, and made the herbage and grass to sprout, he created man and beast and the animals of the forest, the birds of the air and the fish of the sea, and by his mouth they live and die.
Surely he created thee in thy mother's womb, and put into thee the breath of life, and reared thee and placed thee upon the royal throne of Egypt, and he will take thy breath and soul from thee, and return thee to the ground whence thou wast taken.”


“And the anger of the king was kindled at their words, and he said to them, But who amongst all the Gods of nations can do this? my river is mine own, and I have made it for myself....”

`````````````````````````````````
”My river is my own and I have made it for myself”,

God held a grudge against that prince of darkness, for his pride, as spoken through the Pharaohs
```
Eze 29:3-16
"Speak, and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD:

"Behold, I am against you,
O Pharaoh king of Egypt,
O great monster who lies in the midst of his rivers,
Who has said, 'My River is my own;
I have made it for myself.'
…'Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will bring a sword upon you and cut off from you man and beast.
"And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am the LORD, because he said, 'The River is mine, and I have made it.'

"Indeed, therefore, I am against you and against your rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from Migdol to Syene, as far as the border of Ethiopia.
July 6, 2009 3:04 PM

July 6, 2009 at 3:10 PM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Terrie,
I think you're missing my whole point. I am not saying that there is no truth to learn from the Book of Jasher. Just because a book is mentioned in the bible doesn't mean that specific book was inspired by God to be in the canon of Scripture.

Here are some things I'd expect if it was canonical.

#1- The Hebrews would have used it and considered it canonical...

#2- Those who compiled lists of inspired scripture in the OT and NT eras would have recognized it as scriptural...

#3- We would have good manuscript support for the book

Unless you believe that God cannot keep His Word together as He promised then it's a pretty big stretch to say that this was a suppressed or hidden/lost book that was intended by God to be in the Word since it really had no circulation till the 1840s.

I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying the possible historical explanations it gives...what I'm saying is that "just because it's mentioned in the Bible doens't mean it's inspired and canonical."

Your posts have LOTS of assumptions and statements of fact that I've yet to see any specific evidence for, such as:

Book was written by Moses...

Book was completed by Joshua...etc

One last thing I'd like to comment on...you said, "It is ludicrous to believe that the Holy Spirit waited for nearly four hundred years to "ratify" Scripture, which Scripture was already written, used, and accepted as Scripture by believers, from earliest times."

Don't you think it's even more ludicrous to think that the Holy Spirit waited thousands of years (about 6400 to be exact!) to ratify "the book of Jasher"?

Did the Jews consider it canonical? Did the early church and/or the church fathers? What percentage of the church in the first 1800+ years of the church's history use it? That speaks a lot to me, especially when there is a sovereign God out there who said His Word would not fail. If we needed the Book of Jasher then humanity was without it for almost 6300 years. That's about the same as the Mormons saying we didn't have the right Gospel message of Christ until the 1800s when Joseph Smith was given the "latter day revelation"...

THanks!

Jim

July 6, 2009 at 9:37 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

Dear Jim,
I agree I have my opinions, which are educated opinions, in my opinion:),but others will have to decide for themselves by their own studies.
I don't think the Holy Spirit 'ratifies' lists. He just inspired holy men of old -from the beginning of the world, as Jesus said, to write of Jesus to come, and of His work, and also to keep true history records, from the beginning; and Jasher is compiled from their writings, and I believe it is true history, because of its own record, which correlates with the OT.
That correlation and enlightening of the Moses' record in the Pentateuch, is my reason, and it delighted me to discover it, for it answered lots of my own questions, which I had from my years of OT reading.

I have no problem with God keeping His word together, of which the written is dead letters, and which speaks of Christ the Living Word; but I have a problem with fallible men deciding by politics for reasons of power what is of God and what is not, in any age, after other godly men already used and called certain books scripture, or writings sacred, or true history, and then those later men tossing them out.

I do not believe in mens' lists who change those lists and do so for political reasons and for reasons to establish popish powers over the masses.
“Bible” means “collection of books”, and “canon” means “list”, and “scripture” means “writing”; so we have varying peoples in varying places in all the NT Church age who do not agree by consensus with all other NT Believers in Jesus Christ [who do believe that He is God come in flesh], on what is to be in their “collected books” ‘lists” of “writings”, which they consider either inspired or true wisdom or true history -which is how I think the books are separated by categories by the Orthodox Jews – I may have missed a category.

Here is a list of the shortest canon and longest canon/lists of writings/scripture collections/bibles, accepted by various Christians in the world today; which list is put together by UMW @ http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm.

On accepted lists of collected writings in different books,the question is: does the Holy Spirit agree with fallible men, by consensus, and change His mind as men change their minds, and change His mind as the wind blows, agreeing with one group in one place in one age and with another group in another place in the same age, or another age?
Is the Holy Spirit confused?

July 7, 2009 at 12:13 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

That link I gave in the prior post only took one to the search for the link. the link is @
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon2.stm


"Whose Canon? Which Bible?

Biblical scrolls

Protestants tend to think there is only one Bible--ours.

Actually different religious groups of the Judeo-Christian tradition have different biblical canons.
Different Inside Books

Some canons are smaller than the Protestant Bible; others are larger:

* The smallest Bible is claimed by the Samaritans, who recognize only the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch).
* The largest Bible is that of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which has 81 books

New Testament

Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Greek Orthodox Christians agree on the same 27 books for the composition of the New Testament; however some smaller groups of Christians do not. The Nestorian, or Syrian church, recognizes only 22 books, excluding 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude and Revelation.

On the other hand, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes the same 27 books in its "narrower" canon but adds 8 books to its "broader" canon: "four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Books of Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia."1
Old Testament

The Jewish Bible and the Protestant Old Testament contain the same books but they are arranged in a different order. Additionally, books that Protestant Christians divide into two parts (Kings, Chronicles, Samuel, and Ezra-Nehemiah) are only one book in the Hebrew Bible.

In terms of the Old Testament, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, and other Eastern Christians claim more "inside books".

The books of the "second canon" are considered "inside" by Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Ethiopic Christians; the latter group adds even more books beyond the deuterocanonicals. Protestants consider the same books "outside" however they give the Apocrypha high status, considering them valuable for instruction and spiritual edification.

The Ethiopian Orthodox church's narrower Old Testament canon includes the books of the Hebrew Bible, all of the Apocrypha, and "Jubilees, 1 Enoch, and Joseph ben Gurion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations." 2
"

July 7, 2009 at 12:18 PM  
Blogger Terrie said...

When I read through certain parts of Jasher I was reminded of David’s Psalm 18, and correlating the two, I saw that David indeed believed Jasher was true history. For he included things that are written there, in his truly “inspired of the Holy Spirit", Psalm 18.
Hebrew is not written in tenses,as I understand it, so the translators interpret who make something future which is past, and past which is future, because of lost books which explain the context, but look at Jasher 6:26-37, http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/6.htm
and Noah’s prayer, and Psalm 18 repeating Noah’s distress and prayer, and answer.
David got it from Jasher, and included it in his identity psalm of praise.
Then look at David’s inspired Psalm further down, when he identifies with Judah and his brothers in their six day war with the Canaanite kings, as recorded in Jasher. Judah and brethren with him indeed ran through a troop –gebers/mighty men/giants positioned to keep them out of a city, with locked gates, and lept up on the wall, and upon another wall, by supernatural strength from YHWH.
If you really like exciting reading, then read the saga of that six day war in Jasher chapters 33-41, where the victory went to YHWH.
If you just want the short version then read chapter 38 http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/38.htm
David did have it and read it, as I said, and he is referring to what is written in it, in Psalm 18.
David’s Psalm 18 includes the future victory of Christ over His enemies, in national identity, but begins at the beginning promise of His salvation and deliverance.

For me, reading Jasher enriches Biblical understanding and brings praise to God our Salvation, and deliverer.
In Him,
Terrie

July 7, 2009 at 1:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To me reading a good Biblical commentary really brings out the meaning for me to Scripture...but it certainly does not mean that the commentary is Scripture....You use very good educated & logical reasons for your positions...However, it has come to my understanding that the educated and logical reasons of mankind have no real place in the understanding of Spiritual things....As Jesus told the woman at the well, God does not seek worship in man's understanding...either in emotional or physical realms of this world...He seeks worship in Spirit and Truth...Which is Spiritually discerned, real worship actually defies the logic of man..and as far as Paul's teachings...I can now boldly approach the holy of holies, Jesus is the high priest that can take me with Him to the presence of God...a very radical and different teaching than the Old Testament holds...Does not Jesus refer to the book of Enoch... you say is Ethiopian eunuch in origins? How could that be as Thomas had not even seen the Eunuch until after Jesus had died on the cross? It’s not important “who” I know…..it is important that “He” knows “me”…”depart from me, for “I” never knew “you”…..

August 31, 2009 at 11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To me reading a good Biblical commentary really brings out the meaning for me to Scripture...but it certainly does not mean that the commentary is Scripture....You use very good educated & logical reasons for your positions...However, it has come to my understanding that the educated and logical reasons of mankind have no real place in the understanding of Spiritual things....As Jesus told the woman at the well, God does not seek worship in man's understanding...either in emotional or physical realms of this world...He seeks worship in Spirit and Truth...Which is Spiritually discerned, real worship actually defies the logic of man..and as far as Paul's teachings...I can now boldly approach the holy of holies, Jesus is the high priest that can take me with Him to the presence of God...a very radical and different teaching than the Old Testament holds...Does not Jesus refer to the book of Enoch... you say is Ethiopian eunuch in origins? How could that be as Thomas had not even seen the Eunuch until after Jesus had died on the cross? It’s not important “who” I know…..it is important that “He” knows “me”…”depart from me, for “I” never knew “you”…..

August 31, 2009 at 11:36 AM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

Anonymous,
Thanks for the post. I must admit though that I'm not 100% following you. If you could post another comment it might help me answer your objection.

First- you said "You use very good educated & logical reasons for your positions...However, it has come to my understanding that the educated and logical reasons of mankind have no real place in the understanding of Spiritual things....As Jesus told the woman at the well, God does not seek worship in man's understanding...either in emotional or physical realms of this world...He seeks worship in Spirit and Truth...Which is Spiritually discerned, real worship actually defies the logic of man..and as far as Paul's teachings..."

Not sure where I went "philosophical" in the original post. If you could help point me to where I was using "man's understanding" and "emotion" instead of being Scriptural that would help.

You said, "Does not Jesus refer to the book of Enoch... you say is Ethiopian eunuch in origins? How could that be as Thomas had not even seen the Eunuch until after Jesus had died on the cross?" Not sure where you got that I referred to the Ethiopian eunuch??? That comment came from another poster named Terrie and she said "Ethiopian Enoch" not "Ethiopian eunuch"; one is a book (Ethiopian Enoch) and the other is a eunuch from Ethiopia...two different things.

Jim

August 31, 2009 at 7:13 PM  
Anonymous Kim in Charlotte NC said...

Hi Jim, I'm very late in this conversation (as always - haha) but wanted to tell you that last comment by anonymous is obviously directed at Terrie.

I've read some of Jasher, and although it is extremely interesting (to a Biblical scholar), the thing that will stand out for me is there is no proof whatsoever that the Jasher we have today is the original Jasher spoken of in our Bible. Couple that with the fact a Christian could get lost for the rest of his/her life in just one book of the Bible - and we have 66! My respectful opinion is that we have more than enough of the inspired word of God to read and study and meditate on, let's do just that. Not to get thrown off by books that could very well have been concocted by man... we have what God intended us to have. Again, my opinion of course :-)
In Christ, Kim

October 1, 2009 at 9:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Terrie, I'd have to say that I pretty much agree with everything you have written.

I just wonder if people have really checked in into the book of 2 Peter to see what is said about it, which, as you know, is included in our Bible.

November 27, 2009 at 7:53 PM  

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