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Saturday, October 11, 2008

TULIP Attack Wilts Under Misrepresentation

Wow. The sermon that Trevor talks about in his previous two posts was truly amazing...amazing in the sense that it is a total misrepresentation on three main points. I listened to the whole thing and can tell you that Pastor Click is confused and misrepresents the following:

#1- He misrepresents the origin and history of Calvinism (already covered in detail by
Trevor)

#2- He totally misrepresents the doctrines of T.U.L.I.P

#3- He misrepresents what proponents such as John MacArthur have said about key verses

Since Trevor's already covered #1 I'll just start with #2. Here is what he said about what "Calvinists" believe.

Total Depravity- Pastor Click says that this means "unless you are elect you can't be saved." This is NOT what total depravity means. It would be nice if Pastor Click actually read what actual "Calvinists" believe. For example, here is a good definition from Dr James White in his book, "The Sovereign Grace of God"..."Total depravity speaks to the condition, and nature, of man. Basically, this doctrine teaches that all aspects of mankind's character has been touched by sin-- no part of man's nature has escaped the pollution of sin. Man's mind, man's heart, his emotions our will (Yes!, our will)-- every part has been altered, changed, or damaged by sin. The effect of sin's curse is total." This doctrine speaks to man's totally corrupt nature, will, ability, etc...it says nothing about what Pastor Click defined it as.

Unconditional Election- Pastor Click says this means "God chose to elect from eternity past those who would be saved...and who he would send to hell." This again, is not the definition of the doctrine of unconditional election. What does it really mean? The London Baptist Confession says that God's "effectual call" is not based on "anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead." The Westminster Confession says people are elected "out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9] and all to the praise of His glorious grace. Again, where is Pastor Click's definition...is he defining the terms correctly...or is he repeating what he's heard?

The worst one is when he misrepresents "Perseverance of the saints." Here is Pastor Click's definition: "if you are elect you will serve God for your whole Christian life and can't backslide...if you backslide you were never elect. You will always do right once you are saved." Who teaches this? No "Calvinist" believes this and this is NOT what the doctrine teaches. Here is what the London Baptist Confession says about the perseverance of the saints, "And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. ( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )."

Pastor click also misquotes MacArthur...it even appears he didn't even read what MacArthur said! He said someone in his church had a MacArthur Study Bible and he looked up MacArthur's comments on 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16...he says "the whole world" and "God so loved the world" don't need explaining and that MacArthur says "Well obviously this doesn't mean the whole world". This quote is nowhere in MacArthur's notes. MacArthur actually explains what he believes "world" to mean (by the way, the world kosmos doesn't mean every single person who ever lived without exception! John uses it in many ways and a little study will reveal this clearly). MacArthur doesn't just ignore the "obvious meaning"- he actually engages the text and spells out why he believes the doctrine. My advice is that we never quote someone as if they just dismissed a belief without addressing what they truly said!

In addition, the sermon is filled with derrogatory remarks about those who hold to TULIP doctrines...I'll close with two comments. First, why is it that those in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement (I used to be one!) have to attack fellow Christians who hold to differing doctrines as if we're stupid and ignorant? #2- why is it that so many of these folks love to misrepresent almost everyone they quote and every position they describe? Why don't they do their homework and actually exegete the passages and let God's Word rebuke and exhort?
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> posted by Jim Leavenworth at

3 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

i listened to both sermons; his and yours.
he didn't got into calvinism to the nth degree but the overview was good enough.
your 1st response was juvenile and schrill. i assume you will do better with your next "response".
ps
was augustine a born again christian? i don't think so. so deference to him does you no help according to the scripture.

November 11, 2008 at 5:02 PM  
Blogger Trevor Hammack said...

Anonymous,

It is a sad day when people no longer care about truth! His overview of Calvinism was wrong and filled with error. If you want to defend error then you have a real problem. Christians are to speak the truth. Pastor Click claimed Calvin created Calvinism that is 100% false. I pointed to the fact that Augustine was teaching the points of Calvinism over a thousand years before Calvin's birth. What does that have to do with the spiritual condition of Augustine? That is a statement of historical fact! How many books written by Augustine have you read? How do you know if he was a Christian or not? Are you claiming to have some kind of perfect knowledge of a person’s spiritual condition in whom you have never met? Calm down and think before you write.


Trevor Hammack
325-695-8202

November 11, 2008 at 5:12 PM  
Anonymous Jim Leavenworth said...

"Anonymous"- First you post anonymous so we can't really respond or know who you are...then you miss the whole point. In the future please be up- front and allow us the opportunity to engage your comment directly.

2nd- you missed the whole point. Pastor Click completely misrepresented everything in the sermon...the history (Calvin didn't start TULIP doctrines)...and if you read my post (Jim Leavenworth) you'd know that he misrepresented MacArthur and also the simple definitions of the points of Calvinism.

My comment to you is the same I made directly to Pastor Click (in one on one personal emails to him...not hiding behind "anonymous")...please do your homework before you post. It doesn't matter whether Augustine was saved or not...Trevor's whole point was that he taught the doctrines way before Calvin was born...the doctrines actually trace back to the Word of God and the Apostles and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Back at you...I assume YOU will do better on your next post as well.

Jim Leavenworth
Victory Baptist Church
leavenworth@taylortel.net

November 11, 2008 at 6:24 PM  

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