Friday, November 14, 2008

23 Min in Hell...but not dead?

One of the bloggers informs me that Mr Wiese claims on his website (haven't seen the material) the verses I quoted to rebut his argument don't apply since he wasn't coming back from the dead. the passage and tell me if this applies.

Luke 16:26-31 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

My first thought is that the author is stretching it quite a bit. First, if he was being totally honest he would at least mention the passage in his book and tell us why he doesn't believe it fits. One would think that by leaving it out he's making himself a little suspect, wouldn't you think? After all, the passage ruins his argument and could get in the way of solid book sales...I certainly hope this is not the case.

Regarding the Luke passage, here's what the author says:

"This was an out-of-body experience which comes under the classification of a vision. I didn’t die. This wasn’t a near-death experience. I don’t fit the scenario in Luke 16 as I didn’t come back from the dead. I’m not trying to persuade anyone with my testimony, but only to point them to the Word of God."

First, if you are out of your body then aren't you least temporarily? Isn't death the separation of the body from the spirit?

2nd- didn't the author say that there is NOTHING alive in hell? On page 12 of his book he says, "in hell there is no life of any kind. All is dead." Again on page 17 in the notes he repeats, "And there is no life in hell." If he wasn't dead then how was he in hell where there is no life? I'm confused.

Folks, this is grasping for straws. Sheol is grave in Hebrew, right? This is the place for the departed "Dead" Hades (Greek) and Sheol (Hebrew) are the is what Strong's says for the meaning of Hades: the nether world, the realm of the dead 3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell

Here is what Strong's says about Sheol: "underworld, grave, hell, pit 1a) the underworld 1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1b1) place of no return"

So...Mr Wiese went to the realm of the dead, grave, death, abode of the dead...where, as he states, "There is no life of any kind"...but conveniently, he wasn't dead and never came back from the dead...even though he says on page 45, "I was startled to see my body lying on the living room floor."

Folks...unfortunately I believe he's playing games with words. You can't have your cake and eat it too! The whole point of the story is that a miraculous visit from beyond the grave (a miracle!) is not sufficient to bring a sinner to salvation. Mr Wiese can split hairs and redefine things all he wants...the point is that the Luke passage refutes his whole idea. If he was "out of body" and visited hell then this passage refutes that very idea. Saying "I wasn't dead" (I guess to mean he didn't have a heart attack or get shot, etc) doesn't matter one bit...he was sent to hell supposedly just as if he'd died...he left his body on the floor and went to a place for the dead where he says there is NO LIFE.

Luke 16 still stands and God's Word is still enough...more than enough, it is totally sufficient and necessary to bring about redemption/regeneration. Fantastical experiences won't do it...if they won't hear "Moses and the Prophets" they won't believe!
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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I totally agree. Whether he was technically dead or not, or medically dead or doesn't make sense for someone to go to hell in order to come back and warn others about it when:

1. We already have God's word to warn us.
2. God's word also specifies that people will not believe even if someone comes back from heaven (or hell I think) to warn others! They have the word. It should be sufficient. And if it is not, that's it. There's no other option. Not even an out of body experience or vision. Moses, the law, and the prophets with their visions in God's word are all we get. It is sufficient! Read ALL of it, like Luke 16:31.

November 15, 2008 at 3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't think of any place in scripture where someone went to hell and returned.

I think some of the old creeds talk of Christ entering hell but even that is debated.

November 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM  
Blogger Tim said...

i had 23 min in hell, when a child I was babysitting made me watch the teletubies

December 5, 2008 at 11:56 PM  

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